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  #121  
Old March 26th, 2012, 10:03 AM
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It is hard at times to follow events, some it seems is in the past some are on going.

If he is doing this for your approval then you are wasting your time.

He needs to fix himself to earn you and the family back

being supportive and saying thank you for some things are fine but to run around and stroke his ego by saying "the toilet bowl has never looked better" may be true but is that what you guys are working on?

If he asked how is the new me you can tell the truth and it could be

"I like the new you working to be a better person"

This is for you as much as for our marriage and the family.

now to my other question: why is he still at the same job or has he left that job???
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  #122  
Old March 26th, 2012, 04:42 PM
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Yeah Im sorry Chevy when I went back and re-read that post it was totally ambiguous.

He has finished up at work last year but they have asked him to continue attending some meetings on their behalf for which he gets paid 5 hours a week. He is also now secretary to their board for five hours a week. The pqy is very high so that is keeping our heads above water.

It requires him to meet with the boss about once a week. Often there are others there too. There have been two occasions where the boss has offered him meth and he has said no. We have agreed that anythingthe boss says to him is to be shared with me. This has led to him recognising his "alarm bell" a bit better.

I think I need to ask him again to be working toward getting away entirely. We had agreed this was a means to an end but actually he is getting more and more work from them and they are keeping his car and position available!
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  #123  
Old March 26th, 2012, 04:57 PM
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Thank you for explaining a bit more

When you say boss do you mean the owner of the company or a supervisor?

I hope he can keep his strength and continue to say no.

Honestly he should be looking for other work and get out of this dead end.

Big difference if this is a supervisor or the owner.

If the owner than you hubby is hooked up with a loser and somebody that odds are will fail it is not if it will happen but when.

You have to maintain a strong posture during his recovery.

He is way past saying the bad man made me do it / its time for him to find his own balls and say no thank you.
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Find your self respect, if you do not respect yourself
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unlike fine wine unresolved problems do not get better with age

A wife or girlfriend like a husband or boyfriend can
be changed or replaced your children are yours for
life don't forget them in your recovery
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  #124  
Old March 26th, 2012, 07:38 PM
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So the boss is on the board and also the founder of the organisation. But he needs H's business expertise to survive. H was at the job for a week after the discovery but the boss was putting manipulation tactics on him. They are also related by blood - he is older by about 16 years. H lived at his house as a college student so its not pure boss/worker. B is the generation up from H.

He just came out of a meeting where B was present and had been given a gift by him. Hard to refuse it in front of people. I flipped. I said he cant keep using me as his excuse and needs to put up his own fences. It is crunch time.

Feels like he had an emotional affair with B in a way. His loyalty was certainly divided.

I told him he has to choose. Currently he is charging them an hourly rate - by invoice which I like. So much careful managing to do though. This guy is connected to pretty much every potential source of income for H unless he changes career which may be worth considering.

While in theory it should be possible for him to work out some boundaries with this guy, I am feeling very stressed about any contact. What part of NMMNG helps with boundary defense? I think we need to jump to that one.

Feeling so anxious and negative today. Its getting cold too.
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  #125  
Old March 26th, 2012, 11:37 PM
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peace

you know what is hard for people to give advice / opinion / thought???

you keep adding to the story

now the boss is blood related???

nothing will get people to bail on your thread quicker than trickle truth and facts
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Don't take the bait.

Find your self respect, if you do not respect yourself
why would anybody else respect you?

unlike fine wine unresolved problems do not get better with age

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be changed or replaced your children are yours for
life don't forget them in your recovery
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  #126  
Old March 27th, 2012, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peaceseeker View Post
What part of NMMNG helps with boundary defense? I think we need to jump to that one.
It's in chapter 5, the last section.

There's also a book called Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend that some here recommend. And there's a workbook that you can buy that goes along with it.
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  #127  
Old March 27th, 2012, 01:28 PM
Peaceseeker Peaceseeker is offline
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Thanks Hawkeye. Will have a look. Clever of you to put that html link in there!

Chevy when I first posted I had no idea how much to put. I didnt want it to read like a novel (or an inventory). Its hard to find the line. I thought a long post would be too off-putting.

The main relationship is a work one.
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  #128  
Old March 27th, 2012, 02:02 PM
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I know that super long posts turn people off / I am guilty of more than a few

But some facts are important to the overall picture.

In your mind you are upset over the lap dance with a side focus on drug use

however all of it seemed to circle around your hubbies boss.

so many of us think, why not get another job then we find out the boss is family??

that is not a minor point of omission.

maybe I am over biased by it but so many of us hear guys tell stories and its just a friend of his wife then well maybe they kissed well another women covered for her oh yah the other woman is my sister and on and on it goes.
__________________
Don't take the bait.

Find your self respect, if you do not respect yourself
why would anybody else respect you?

unlike fine wine unresolved problems do not get better with age

A wife or girlfriend like a husband or boyfriend can
be changed or replaced your children are yours for
life don't forget them in your recovery
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  #129  
Old March 27th, 2012, 02:57 PM
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Ok so does the boss being a relative make it seem different now? If so how? That a man would be more inclined to want to please him? To me its still an older male rolemodel. The point with H is that this guy was going to take responsibility for him. I dont know.

I dont really get some of this nice guy approval stuff. The cost is so high. I dont understand why NGs want approval at the expense of everything they purport to care about. I get that it is a paradigm and that H has to invent a whole new one for himself and that thats a scary transition for anyone.

Im confused about what is NG stuff and what isnt. Have movedmon from the lapdance focus now - it seems the drug issue was psychologically waiting until I was done with that. Now the boss/work/drugs/lies is the focus. Even though he has said, I still cant stop thinking "why?!".
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  #130  
Old March 27th, 2012, 04:42 PM
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I dont think Ive ever bragged about "turning" straight men gay to a family member.

I dont think Ive ever given the impression that I would bugger any of them either--blood relative or not.


This relative/boss is toxic. But....it is a great chance for hubby to enforce/maintain his boundaries and frame--sorta like working out for his willpower.

The main issue is your hubbies inability to be his own guy --this boss is just the first of many users your hubby will run into in life.


Why isnt your hubby doing the bfe's and active on this board?
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  #131  
Old March 27th, 2012, 04:47 PM
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Hi Peach,

(by the way I am OK with the Tarzan moniker, in case the previous response wasn't clear on that, although the chest thumping starts to hurt after a while. )

Unlike Chevy and a few of the others I am not really concerned about the details. It isn't so much the question of alcohol, pot, or meth; stage dancing, tables dances, or lap dances; working with old friends, family, or just a bad crowd. (When one is OK but another is not then these just become gray areas that lead to confusion and mistakes.) It really comes down to you and the H. In the end that is the key element and detailed rehashes of specific interactions, conversations, and events just become long analysis problems after a while.

In the end this is about what the two of you can make out of what is in front of you. You have to find a balance that works for you and he has to find a balance that works for him. If the two of you can do this together then you have a marriage. Without that then everything else is just a frustrating exercise in "what if" thinking.

Most of the guys on this web site operate from a particular position that is also one of the key premises of this site itself, which is that the guy has to step up and own everything in his life, his actions and decisions, his goals and priorities, his wants and needs, his marriage, his family, everything. That is key around here because long term "approval seeking" keeps guys from actually learning how to do any of that. The need for approval is so strong that the typical NG works very hard to remain open and flexible to whatever the other person "might" want just on the off chance of getting something back that feels even remotely like approval. This is the key driver for NG types, as you are finding out. It puts the "nice" into NG, and not in a nice way, because by not getting his real needs met (see the ownership items above) he then tries to get them met covertly, and you are also getting a feel of what that looks like.

Of course there has to be a balance to this as with everything else in life and getting to that is the difficult part, particularly for someone in a relationship with a NG. One of the things that makes this hard to "fix" is that the NG needs to take ownership of his own healing process as a first step toward taking ownership of all the rest, or it just doesn't work. Trying "just because it is needed for approval" is just more of the same. He needs to want all that taking ownership can give him because taking true ownership of all that you do is very hard and challenging and without the personal commitment it will fail.

So, while the other guys are looking for details, I am most interested in what you are doing for yourself, because he is not going to "get" the commitment just because you say he needs to. And we can't tell you how to make that happen either. We can help you find, possibly, healthier responses to his actions and responses but that also quickly becomes a rabbit trail. Without working with him directly and hearing his honest and heartfelt confusions and concerns we can do nothing to help him at all.

So going over all the things he says and does and all the background to that, with you, really isn't very useful for anything other than helping you understand some things a little better, and that has limited value also. In the end you will have to know what you want and need to do, you will have to have the strength to do it, and you will have to live with the consequences. This is true whether you choose to stay in the marriage or choose to leave it. All roads that start in your post lead to you.

Now, another idea that floats around here a lot is that we all attract what we are, meaning that our own needs and the way go about getting them filled tends to attract people who are most likely to meet those needs. For NG's that takes the form of finding someone who makes us work for our approval and doesn't give it very often because that is what we know of the world and anything else would be confusing, leads in all things because we are afraid to lead ourselves (leading puts getting approval at risk), makes all the important choices because we just don't know how to choose for ourselves, and basically takes all the responsibility for our lives because we just don't know how or what we want and need other than "approval".

This often ends up taking the form of someone seeking the weak willed, pliable, easy going, easy to dominate, approval seeking partner who won't question or object to being led. Now of course it really isn't as clear cut and obvious as it seems and living that way isn't always a bad thing, but it can often lead to poor choices and unhealthy behaviors becoming a problem, particularly as the relationship enters the "comfortable" phase when we feel it is OK to ease off the "pleasing" a little bit. Then things start to happen.

The pressure to meet dominating standards increases or we just get tired of them and increase our "acting out" to ease the pressure, one or the other partner starts to wonder why the "excitement" has left the marriage and starts seeking it elsewhere, the dominate gets more dominating and the submissive starts squeezing out from between the anvil and the hammer more often and in less and less healthier ways.

When guys come here after getting tired of living that way many of them work on adopting the "masculine extreme", a sort of forced swinging of the pendulum from the extremely weak side to the extremely strong side, hoping that somehow they will learn enough to end up in a better middle ground somewhere. That makes sense actually. It's all a learning curve and a steep one.

So while there are some specific questions around current behavior that seem to need clarification; the boss and work question, the pressure relief mechanism of alcohol and drugs, his priority setting from an "approval seeking" perspective, the real question is what type of a relationship do you want in the long run and can you make it out of what is in your life right now?

So while you are looking at him and asking why he does what he does and how to get him to change, you also need to be looking at the entire marriage dynamic and that includes yourself. That is why an earlier question in the thread was so important. What if he decides that he needs to lead? Your answer about needing to establish trust was a good one but not the complete answer, not even half way. Are you prepared to let him set the tone and standards for your relationship and what goes on in the house and family without judgment and resistance? If not are you prepared to share that with him somehow? Or, if he never actually steps up to needing to take that lead into his own hands, are you prepared to live with him and lead him in everything?

The answer to these questions are really at the heart of the matter. You really need to be clear on what you want and why, then you can go about getting it. There is no right answer, just what you and he can live with, and, be clear on this, trying to live with something you or he really doesn't want to live with only leads to other poor choices and bad behaviors.

So, this is why we say around here: "what do you want?" "what are you doing for yourself?" You can only change yourself and, often as not, change really means accepting who you are and what you need rather than what you want, and then shaping the rest of your life around that.
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  #132  
Old March 27th, 2012, 06:47 PM
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tao

I need to clear up a little bit with you.

there are multiple things going on here,

I don't need all the minute details of each and everything that is going on.

But to pooh pooh off telling us that one of the bigger issues is his boss controlling him but not knowing its a blood relative is not some minor minute detail.

how many guys come on here and talk about dad, mom, brother, sister, in laws etc. if somebody said a guy keeps giving them shit most would say work on yourself and don't associate with the jerk, only to find out that oh by the way the guy is his dad. minor point???

In one of my earlier posts I told peach to file on her husband because I think that is the only thing that will make him actually shit or get off the pot.

This problem she has is not about sitting around and holding hands its about her husband finding his balls and becoming a man and her being able to deal with him working through this.

Sure she has shit to do but to me her husband is content with blaming everybody except the real culprit and that's whats in the mirror.

Some boss ( who now is a blood relative ) gets him ( poor guy just can't say no) to use meth, get lap dances and hopefully bend over for a ream job from the boss for that promotion??

I have asked a direct question of peach more than once, and I will ask it again.

Why does your husband stay at this job?? Why does he not look for other work?

is dealing with this guy worth the problems even if he finds his balls?

because this guy relative or not is a loser for a boss.

Has she thought about filing for divorce to get his ass in gear? its obvious that asking him why will only get BS or spin. Its up to him to fix himself, she does not need to ask why, she alrady knows he does these things so she needs to do what is good for her. Maybe it will shake his ass into being a man.

nobody is trying to side step any issue.

When people ask for advice they should give a basic brief outline of all the players involved.
__________________
Don't take the bait.

Find your self respect, if you do not respect yourself
why would anybody else respect you?

unlike fine wine unresolved problems do not get better with age

A wife or girlfriend like a husband or boyfriend can
be changed or replaced your children are yours for
life don't forget them in your recovery
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  #133  
Old March 27th, 2012, 08:01 PM
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Peace, I like your posts just fine.

I find keeping my posts to roughly 80% about me, 20% about him and others, helps the search for real answers that can guide your way .
There are people who will give you genuine input to your own journey when you talk about your own issues, feelings, wants and goals.

Otherwise it tends to get sidetracked. Feel free to start a new thread about *you* sometime. If you feel safe enough here.
I’ve had good help here, and learned to discern better what feels healthy and not. Lately my words have eluded me, I miss a female poster JAG around here who was so keen at giving challenging questions to keep things focussed back on track *back onto me* and my choices and my responsibilities. The only real things I had any power to change.


I liked TaoZen’s post.
I’ve been lashing out in anger lately at things ( I’m sorry Checked) that I should have been angry at in my marriage. I am working to find a better way to express all these long repressed feelings.

Anyway Peace,
Trust the search
It can lead you to some gems of wisdom and guidance, on and off the forum.
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  #134  
Old March 27th, 2012, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Iíve been lashing out in anger lately at things ( Iím sorry Checked)



Im not sure that you have anything to apologize for Autumn *insert incredibly sexist comment about sammichs and women in the kitchen here*.

In all seriousness --I dont see a reason to apologize to me or anyone --you dont strike me as someone who posts something in order to hurt someone--you post looking for answers. Whether ot not my viewpoint is accurate to your experience is up to you.


Peach--

Chevy --and to a greater extent me-- post advice based on various factors like upbringing, life experiences, political views and sense of self. Since chevy and I are a bit ....old....we dont have time to screw around and post advice with pillowy softness and diplomatic language. Think Marine drill instructor with hemorrhoids. Straight and to the point. No meta--hoosis--feel good crap.

Bottom line-- your hubby screwed up because he needs to grow a set--it sounds like in many areas of his life and marriage.

He doesnt have to do the bfe's and join this board. But it would help a lot and I dont get why he hasnt. Us talking to you with "taozen" language --when he has the problem--doesnt load the manure on the wagon. Im not saying YOU dont have work to do --- but you cant change him.
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  #135  
Old March 27th, 2012, 09:09 PM
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TaoZen TaoZen is offline
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Hey Chevy, sorry to have stepped on your thoughts here. Am still learning how to leave room for other opinions. That's only one of my problem's and it is a big one. I always assume the OP just knows to call BS on anything I say without hesitation. I thrive on that. It often points me at things I didn't already see for myself.

And I get your request for details. They can help clarify.

You're right, walking away from a close family member is much harder to do that a friend or a work buddy. Guess how I know?
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I am
I am the wind
I am the sun and I am the trees
I am the moon and I am the seas
I am the stone that causes the ripple and I am the ripple

You may think this to be nothing but it is a truth so profound as to be frightening and I am unafraid
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