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  #136  
Old January 31st, 2012, 03:57 PM
Kodiak Kodiak is offline
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Originally Posted by TeachingMe View Post
Isn't this the crux of the biscuit everywhere for everyone that is married or plans to be?

TM
Well not if you're an F'n NG like I was! At first I thought it must be my fault so I tried to figure out what I was doing wrong. When I couldn't make her happy I subverted my needs to her apparent conflicting needs.
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  #137  
Old January 31st, 2012, 05:19 PM
jackstay jackstay is offline
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Man, I'd be careful here. If she's truly BPD she will concede while she thinks you are on the way out, only to restart the pattern when she feels more secure.

Sometimes it's better to just cut the losses. No one would blame you if you served her papers and ended it. And in reality, there's very little hope for those with BPD.

You have to make your own decision, but for me, one instance of cheating was enough. I ended it as soon as I was sure. Her quip about losing faith in me as a husband, future father and dependable person sure didn't make me hesitate on the trigger that long, either. I was out the door in a week.

Good riddance. *spit*
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  #138  
Old January 31st, 2012, 05:40 PM
Misk Misk is offline
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Man, I'd be careful here. If she's truly BPD she will concede while she thinks you are on the way out, only to restart the pattern when she feels more secure.
Thanks for your concern. She is in therapy 3 times a week, two times for herself and one with our marriage therapist (im on Skype and shes in the office). My son sees his psychologist twice a week and I'm seeing mine therapist out here once a week. The biggest identified issue w/ ppl who exhibit traits associated with BPD is their denial of a problem. She knows she has a problem and is actively working on it. This is not a "I'm going to trick you" type thing. Their perception is so skewed this is how they have been taught and learned think and react.

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Sometimes it's better to just cut the losses. No one would blame you if you served her papers and ended it. And in reality, there's very little hope for those with BPD.
I had a lawyer draw up the separation papers and handed them to her and told her if it happens again, we sign and file. I think this is stereotyping at its best. Actually today, there is much more hope for people with BPD if you look at the results of the different therapy including DBT which is over 50% effective at "re-wiring" the neuropathways. Im not saying its not going to be a challenge, I have no doubts about that, but I'm not going to give up on my relationship W. Even though she displays behavioral characteristics associated with BPD, she is still the caring, loving and compassionate person I fell in love with nine years ago. Circumstances brought out the worst in her and now we know what we are dealing with and are trying to work on our selves and the marriage.
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  #139  
Old February 29th, 2012, 04:14 PM
Misk Misk is offline
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Thought I'd drop an update or two and also see what you thought of a few things.

First, I have about 14 more weeks til I get home. I'm hoping we can continue to communicate as well as we have been. There are some things that are worrying me (BPD wise) and I may have to pop over to Oz for a while when going through these new issues. As for my NG stuff, I seem to be walking a good line and staying out of the old NG habits. I call out things when they bother me avoiding the buildup of resentment and have really completely nixed those damned covert contracts (more on that in a minute). Of course not being at home, I am not caretaking (and didnt when I went home for R&R). I have set my boundaries and they remain in place even though it seems she is trying to negotiate with me on them which brings us to my current issue. In session today we began discussing my boundaries concerning interaction with other men (among other things). She says to me that I cut her off from men (her therapist advised her to establish relationships with other women) because of my boundaries (listed below as a refresher):

1. No more males sleeping at the house when I'm gone except her father or my father
2. No sleeping at another man's house if I am not with her.
3. No more "dates" with men except me. She can meet friends for lunch/dinner only if in a group and she stays in sight and with the group the entire time. No one-on-one excursions.
4. Inform me if any of her ex's (BF or fiances)/OM contacts her.
5. No undressing in front of other males except me, her dad (hes a physician) or her other Dr. and not without a chaperone.

and that she has been doing all this stuff for "me" (as in hanging out with women and respecting my boundaries). Here's the kicker, I kept asking her why she is doing it for ME and what she wants in return and finally she said, I want your trust back (sounds like a convert contract to me). I tried to reply to her with, "These things you are doing you need to do for yourself not me," but she said I cant tell me what to do, which I understand I was only attempting to inject my POV. So frusturating. Does it sound like a covert contract to you guys?

Secondly, being that most of us here have common ideas and issues about relationships, what are your definitions of a "date"? Is it lunch/coffee with a friend, dinner and a movie, alone, with multiple friends. And where do many of you stand on how to define a date as opposed to just seeing a friend of the opposite sex? This is a very strong point of contention between us right now and I dont want to give in. I feel I need to be able to explain a little better and I keep getting wrapped up in circles about it. As Johnny 5 would say, "Need input." Thanks!
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  #140  
Old February 29th, 2012, 04:38 PM
Kodiak Kodiak is offline
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If she is doing it for you because she knows it is important to you, and she wants to make things right with you, I think it is ok. She may not have awareness that you do in terms of improving oneself and thus the benefits flow over into other areas of your life.

In one sense she is doing it for herself because she has some selfish motivation to keep the marriage. Which is good.

If she thinks she has to do it as punishment, that is not good. If she thinks she is doing it so that you can learn to trust her again, it is not good. She does need some level of understanding that these rules are for her own protection against her own weaknesses, and the rules will help her strengthen herself. It is that safety which is what then helps you and your marriage.

Dates would be anything resembling one on one time. Obviously no lunches or anything else with only a man. Or only with men. A larger group would be ok as long as there is no specific or implied pairing. For example, going with 3 other people, but two of them are a couple. So she and another man would be unofficially paired.

I think also any free form risky social situation such as a party with a number of single men there would be bad news. She might go alone without a male date, but once there she would be free to pair up. So a party isn't a date but I think you need some kind of agreed upon parameters for parties.
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  #141  
Old February 29th, 2012, 04:38 PM
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Dont let her wrap you in details. Do you really HAVE to define a date? She sounds like a child that wants to know whee the line is so they can push right to the line.
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  #142  
Old February 29th, 2012, 04:44 PM
TeachingMe TeachingMe is offline
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Dont let her wrap you in details. Do you really HAVE to define a date? She sounds like a child that wants to know whee the line is so they can push right to the line.
If I have to wonder if it's a date, then it's a date.

TM
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  #143  
Old February 29th, 2012, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Misk View Post
... she said, I want your trust back (sounds like a convert contract to me). ... Does it sound like a covert contract to you guys?

Secondly, being that most of us here have common ideas and issues about relationships, what are your definitions of a "date"? Is it lunch/coffee with a friend, dinner and a movie, alone, with multiple friends. And where do many of you stand on how to define a date as opposed to just seeing a friend of the opposite sex? This is a very strong point of contention between us right now and I dont want to give in. I feel I need to be able to explain a little better and I keep getting wrapped up in circles about it. As Johnny 5 would say, "Need input." Thanks!
A covert contract is no longer "covert" when it comes out in the open. Saying she wants your trust again (by earning it through her actions) might be a good thing. Keep watching her actions. It was also good that you brought her motivation out into the open. You might have derailed a potential covert contract, and the resultant resentment. You are leading her toward a better way of communicating.

Generally it's hard to apply NMMNG principles to your SO, unless the other party wants to be accountable to you. It's better to just be yourself and encourage her to develop own recovery support system, in addition to whatever you two are able to work on together.

As to what constitutes a "date", that's up to you. If she has done something to damage trust, she needs to make restitution by placing herself, at least temporarily, under your authority in these matters. For your part, trust your gut. If you are uncomfortable with any of her friends, she will need to follow your lead.

You will need strong internal boundaries to get through this, but you can handle it!
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  #144  
Old May 12th, 2012, 03:28 AM
Misk Misk is offline
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Hey guys. I know its been awhile. I have been severely absorbed in therapy (with and without W) of the late, but I am starting to come down to the wire in the sandbox. I've got between three and six weeks left (will know more next week) then I'm heading home. MC is doing okay right now, I mean its kinda hard when you are so far away from each other. Our lines of communication are still fairly open, although I feel at times there are things she is not telling me and that's when the doubt creeps in. We have been discussing working together as a group in our join sessions recently. It seems to be going okay. I still get angry with her when she says batshyt crazy things like I am using our son as a spy. The sessions ended rather abruptly last after I heard that crap. It is definitely a new one (reach, reach, reach some more...). The MC has said he sees much improvement in her demeanor and analytical processes during the sessions, but things like this will remain around for some time while she figures out its all really about trust and why she doesn't trust anyone, yeah that includes me. She is trying. She has never been good at staying awake to read, and she said the BPD books were to accusatory, so she bought an audio book (Screamfree Marriages) and she says she is learning alot. She tells me things he says in the book and I think to myself, "Seriously? Ive been saying this shyt to you for YEARS!" but I dont say it. She actually told me that for her it is easier to understand coming from someone on the outside and I just think, "Whatever, you just hate it when you are unreasonable" but I dont say it, I STFU (thanks Bootstrap). I have tried time and again to bring up the "transparency" issues and if she plans to earn my trust back that there needs to be more of it, but it hasnt gotten very far yet. I plan to bring it up in our session Wednesday and gradually tying it into working together as a group. MC says it could be a lllllllllllooooooonnnnnnggggg tttttiiiiiiiimmmmmeeee before she is able to completely comprehend what "trust" is. :::Sigh:::

Now, this is the current issue. Ive been going with my gut for a bit and right now its says something has been a little off lately. Problem is I cant put my finger on it, so I wanted to put some stuff here and get it off my chest. I've been pretty good with the victim puke (my wife even called it "puking" when she starts doing it too, lol). I have been logging some information about what she says she is doing and seeing if it corresponds to other records. It comes back to the transparency thing which she has not been wanting to do. She wants her privacy. Thats fine for now. Cant do much about it can I, but I told her that things are going to really change when I get home. I'm not sure she understands that yet either. On these boards, we always talk about "watching their actions", but of course being 6500 miles away its kinda hard to do, so this will have to suffice until I get home. I'm not going to bring it up the logs in session until I have some definitive info. There are a few things here and there and a phone number that popped up after everything happened, but I dont know whose it is. She has actually been trying to make some female friends and she's made one or two. So it could be one of theirs, but I dont know. We will have to wait and see.

Im hanging in there. Still working out when my arm isnt hurting and eating well. I need to be drinking more water though. I am staying relatively calm and the sleep comes and goes depending on the day and how things are progressing or digressing. Thats really all for now. I'm trying to focus on reading up for my Masters for next fall and getting re-training on SCUBA so I'm staying busy. Not doing a lot of therapy reading right now, pretty burned out from it all. I have never been this mentally exhausted. I'm going to make an effort to come here once a week and write on this post. Hopefully soon I will have more energy to spend on the other discussions, im just beat right now. Wholly shyt! My hair, yeah, while I've been balding since 18 yrs old, I'm rapidly going white in the temples and on the sides. Stress sux! BTW, does anyone know where can I find out if there is a NMMNG support group in that meets in Tucson? I would like to start going to one (along with all the other therapy) if I can find one out there, when I get back. I know we all have our issues since we are here, but I hope you guys are hanging in there too. WE CAN DO THIS! Thanks for reading. Take care and see ya'll in a week.
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  #145  
Old May 12th, 2012, 09:06 AM
Kodiak Kodiak is offline
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Misk, stay safe over there!

There is a subforum http://nomoremrniceguy.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=7 which you could search or post in for Tucson.

There are websites which will reverse lookup a phone number. Cell numbers seem to never be free, so you might have to spring a few $ to get the name of who owns those phone #s. Definitely get an outside confirmation on the numbers, don't trust the entry in your wife's phone to be accurate. Cheaters will often use a phony name associated with the affair partner's number.

I give you a lot of credit for working so hard on your marriage. Trust is really the bottom level in the foundation of the relationship, so not having trust is the biggest problem. At least for me.
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  #146  
Old May 12th, 2012, 12:41 PM
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Kodiak +1

My wife's refusal to be more open hurts our marriage / yet her actions are good and I marriage seems to be doing far better. I also have found my balls and by doing so do not need to raise my voice but act with confidence / self confidence.

Trust is the basic material needed in the foundation of a good marriage.
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