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  #16  
Old May 16th, 2012, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Maroon View Post
Bottom line fellas. Am I out of line here? If I'm being honest, I'm terrified. This is the worst fight we've had to date, and my biggest impulse is to accept blame and apologize because I want to right the ship. In fact, I typed up ideas for us to try together in order to help fix things but then decided not to bring it up because I didn't want to come across as needy or admitting fault. When I rationalize it, I see clearly that I didn't do anything wrong, but emotionally, I'm a nervous wreck. I want to be married to her and have a passionate relationship, but I don't want to spend the rest of my life saying "yes dear. If you say so, dear."
Maroon - I've got good news. You're not alone here! The bad news is it's not an easy pill to swallow to realize you're the one that has to man up and continue down this path at home. You did a good job taking control and handling the finances when needed, but there's a LONG way to go.

I'm right here with you man. The difference is that my wife is not employed and WONT go back to work because she wants to take care of our daughter herself at home. I had to quit working a second job and let our finances get a little sketchy now to force her to even talk about it. Right now she's ready and threatening to leave because "sugar daddy" (me) stopped paying.

I have that same letter that you worked up - all the ways we can work on fixing things. The W has been insistent that she doesn't have fault and doesn't do as-bad of things as I do. I told her I want to brag about us again - how together we were, how much fun we are having, etc.

Your woman will try to spin the situation when confronted. You will look like a lost puppy if you came looking for her last night - it's perfectly ok for her to pout about this for awhile. You MUST not let that or your anxiety get the best of you right now. I feel it too and all I want to do is apologize and make it better, but that's how my wife got into the place she is right now.

Be strong man, don't let her tilt you off your rock.

-SeattleZ
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  #17  
Old May 17th, 2012, 12:55 AM
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OK....Mr. Maroon,

Do you want to know the worst news...... You are afraid. You are afraid that if you stand up to your wife, do what you know NEEDS to be done, she will take so much offense that she will end the marriage. And that may actually happen!

And if it does, you just hastened the inevitable. I honestly don't think that is likely, and she is just trying to both put you in your place (under her thumb) and direct all anger/blame away from herself. If you can be a man, lead your family, and explain to your wife, why she is not going to be in charge of this any more, that is the best and only chance your marriage has. Is it possible that it may not work....Yes. But if that't the case, this was not a root cause, but just a symptom and as I said, the eventual dissolution of your marriage was inevitable.

This might make you very afraid. Don't let it! Instead, be very unafraid. Do what needs to be done, and let the chips fall where they may. Often what is right and wrong is debatable. Not too much debate here. Your wife was incredibly irresponsible, to the point of financially damaging your household. Your wife's insecurity is a serious problem, and does not seem to stem from you. There are probably some serious causes for why she is acting like she is, and they need to be addressed (and I can only guess how enthusiastic she will be about this). You have a near intervention type scenario, not too different from someone who has an alcohol or drug problem. Your wife has a serious problem that she is both ignoring and turning your concern into "your" problem.

Full disclosure. I was your wife. I had a combination of overwhelmed by work (which caused me not to deal with all sorts of things, both at work and at home), depression, and a need to fix the problems I knew I was causing. It damn well came close to ending my marriage....probably would have if my wife had not had a few skeletons in her closet that caused her a little too much guilt to "throw the first stone". I think it is highly likely then when your wife realizes two things, that you are not going to let this go, and that you still love her (in spite of your disappointment), there is a chance she will admit she screwed up (this may never get verbalized, but she may surrender control to you).

That said, I'm a big fan of the Dave Ramsey approach, and one thing he will stress is that you do this stuff together. One or the other spouse may do the nuts and bolts of paying the bills, but both spouses should know in general what's going on with the finances, and it should be near impossible for either one of you to be as in the dark as you were. See you screwed up too. You looked the other way. You let yourself be intimidated. Stop that! Take the reins....and once under control, you both need a hand on the reins. Also, I strongly suggest your wife get counseling, as I suspect she has some underlying issues that need to be dealt with.
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  #18  
Old May 17th, 2012, 01:20 AM
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Atom makes good points / both husband and wife need to know what's going on with finances.

Now I was lucky, I realized early on that my wife hides mail, not because she wants to hide mail but she gets busy and the quickest way to clean the counter is open a drawer and slide anything and everything in the drawer.

She needed to use my car but she needed all of the trunk, I had some important stuff in the trunk but she took it out and put it in a safe place.

have you found it?? its only been 4 weeks so maybe if I move one day I will find it. she has no clue.

But I did take charge as I said in a earlier post and took over paying the bills and she agreed that I should. Oh not before I got all the spin and BS of how busy she was and she needed to justify it some odd way.

But it did not matter I needed to take over and I did.

You need to do the same and I suggest by changing the mailing address of where the bills go as I did.

In short order my wife was happy as hell that i did it. I shudder when things are mailed to my house and I have to play scavenger hunt.
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  #19  
Old May 17th, 2012, 01:41 AM
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Now the question is, will the OP return for a second post?

Boyd
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  #20  
Old May 17th, 2012, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Boyd View Post
Now the question is, will the OP return for a second post?

Boyd
Haha. Yes, the OP will return! Thanks for the great input, all.

It's still very cold in the freezer, but having two days of silence has helped me detach quite a bit. I actually feel cheerful this morning even though my wife spent her second night on the couch. BOY was I tempted to go down and make amends in the middle of the night, but I kept thinking about how her being angry isn't my fault, and how I can't keep fielding all the negative stuff just because she expects me to in order for things to be "ok" again. Huge emphasis on the quotation marks, there.
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  #21  
Old May 17th, 2012, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Winhamness View Post
This is what I noticed about your post too.


Even your post here is clearly about finding some external validation for your behavior.

Let me ask you 1 single question that is at the root of your anxeity over this situation:

Are YOU happy with the way you've handled this situation?
Yes, I agree. I am looking for external validation, and I guess that's because I'm conflicted between my gut and my emotions. My gut says I did nothing wrong (and I'm following my gut), but that doesn't help the fact that all the NG instincts kick in automatically still. So it's hard to say I feel happy because like you said, I'm still attached as hell to my wife's emotions. I don't feel ashamed about how I feel/ how I reacted though, and that's different than the norm. So there's some progress.
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  #22  
Old May 17th, 2012, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by atoms View Post

See you screwed up too. You looked the other way. You let yourself be intimidated. Stop that! Take the reins....and once under control, you both need a hand on the reins. Also, I strongly suggest your wife get counseling, as I suspect she has some underlying issues that need to be dealt with.
Yes, we were doing the Dave Ramsey program off and on with the "gazelle" intensity. Paid off both of our cars and all of our credit card debt. We eased off of paying down debt about 6 months ago, and I haven't been engaged with it since (which is A) definitely part of the problem, and B) definitely MY contribution to the cluster we're in now.

My wife isn't controlling overall and she is genuinely a good and caring wife, but she has a few things that she clutches to (and I think they're mostly things she feels embarrassed/ashamed about) where she gets absolutely venomous if I try interfering. This is obviously one of them.
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  #23  
Old May 17th, 2012, 08:47 AM
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Welcome Mr Maroon. You are in better shape than some of the men here, who find themselves on the couch. Keep leading in this area.

Perhaps your wife will agree to counseling, to facilitate relationship progress. If not, note the warning flag; continue to work on your own issues in either case.

-----------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Maroon View Post
... I'm a nervous wreck.
This is typical for a Nice Guy beginning the process of breaking free. It's better to be a "nervous wreck" moving forward than a fence sitting 'nervous Nelly'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Maroon View Post
... I want to be married to her and have a passionate relationship, but I don't want to spend the rest of my life saying "yes dear. If you say so, dear."
As you break free of previous dysfunctional patterns, you will be better able to discern if having all of this (your balls, your current wife, and "a passionate relationship") is a realistic probability.

--------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Maroon View Post
...
It's still very cold in the freezer, but having two days of silence has helped me detach quite a bit. I actually feel cheerful this morning even though my wife spent her second night on the couch. BOY was I tempted to go down and make amends in the middle of the night, but I kept thinking about how her being angry isn't my fault, and how I can't keep fielding all the negative stuff just because she expects me to in order for things to be "ok" again. Huge emphasis on the quotation marks, there.
Congrats! Continue to "detach" by doing the BFAs in the NMMNG book. Posting your BF progress, and on-going situational issues, as you have done on this thread, will help you feel more consistently 'cheerful'.
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  #24  
Old May 17th, 2012, 09:44 AM
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Hang in there.

First off, don't take any offense to Boyd's comment. Too often people check in here get advice, and disappear (or return to being a lurker, I suppose). Again, not most, but it happens. If your schedule really only let's you check in in the morning....then your schedule only lets you check in in the morning....No big deal.

A thought. It may be worth getting your credit score (definitely get your credit report, as you can do this for free). Especially if you know where it was not too long ago. If you can have a quantifiable measure of how her actions have hurt the family. Also possibly total up all interest and penalties accrued during this period. OK.....but I'm putting the cart way before the horse. This info is for after you guys have dealt with the basic emotional and trust issues. Its to be used and known by you when she later tries to diminish the seriousness of what she did. And to help reinforce the seriousness of this in your mind. But this shouldn't be anywhere near the first thing out of your mouth when communication resumes.

So....I want to reiterate....this current lack of communication could eventually become the death knell to your marriage. But, if that is the case it means your wife is willing to destroy the marriage to defend her f'ups here.....and that is seriously screwed up. For someone that unwilling to face their failings, they have serious problems, and your lucky to have brought them to a head on really such a trivial issue.

Do I think this scenario is likely....no. Odds are she will come around, and it will be with a mixture of apology and trying to make you believe this was not a big deal. Before that she will probably try to make this all your fault one more time. You don't get the next phase unless you stick to your guns.

BTW....when you really get talking again, be sure and take the blame.....but only for what you screwed up. And here is what you screwed up (you said it). You did not maintain the level of involvement and communication that Dave Ramsey says is mandatory to doing his program, or just finances within a marriage in general. At this point that communication is far more important than your debt or your gazelle intensity (and this isn't just me talking....if you listen to Dave's radio program, its pretty obvious he'd tell you the same. He'd rather have a couple forge their own path together, then have only one follow his program and the other either be in opposition or apathy)

So....stay strong. You are handling this well. What you are doing is the only thing that will help your marriage in the long term. And, if your worst fears come true, and this ends your marriage....the problem is not yours....but that the problems with your wife were deeper seated then you knew! So be strong....your doing it right!
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  #25  
Old May 17th, 2012, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Maroon View Post
It's still very cold in the freezer, but having two days of silence has helped me detach quite a bit. I actually feel cheerful this morning even though my wife spent her second night on the couch. BOY was I tempted to go down and make amends in the middle of the night, but I kept thinking about how her being angry isn't my fault, and how I can't keep fielding all the negative stuff just because she expects me to in order for things to be "ok" again. Huge emphasis on the quotation marks, there.
You've already received lots of good advice. I just want to add that the above is FN great. Hold your ground...she is expecting you to break at any moment and give her the full Nice Guy treatment - hugs, apology from you, etc.
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  #26  
Old May 17th, 2012, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by atoms View Post
Hang in there.

First off, don't take any offense to Boyd's comment.
No offense taken. I assumed it was partly tongue in cheek.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atoms View Post
So....I want to reiterate....this current lack of communication could eventually become the death knell to your marriage. But, if that is the case it means your wife is willing to destroy the marriage to defend her f'ups here.....and that is seriously screwed up. For someone that unwilling to face their failings, they have serious problems, and your lucky to have brought them to a head on really such a trivial issue.

Do I think this scenario is likely....no. Odds are she will come around, and it will be with a mixture of apology and trying to make you believe this was not a big deal. Before that she will probably try to make this all your fault one more time. You don't get the next phase unless you stick to your guns.
Thanks, it's good to have a sounding board here to keep me focused and aware of what's ahead.
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  #27  
Old May 18th, 2012, 10:48 AM
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Just some thinsg to consider.

Most our wives until we give them a good amount of hell for being twelve will act as such.

Being on the inside clouds your judgement often and makes you feel doubt when you do the right thing.

Now for at least now pretend your wife is all of ten and proceed accordingly.

Would I let a 10 year old pay the bills? No.
Would I let a 10 year old having a lot of financial responsibility? No.
Would I worry about a 10 year old bitching? No.

Take over. You are not in a equal relationship. She will bitch wine and moan. Do not give a damn about that.

Her issues lie within her and the big clue is when she started the self hatred comments in your discussions. She has severe esteem issues.

She should feel like shit for failing to take care of basic necessary issues as a mother and wife and maintaining a household.

Don't deny her the opportunity to grow up by coddling and pandering to her teenage BS.

Make her pay the price and show how how an adult handles things.
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  #28  
Old May 18th, 2012, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. Maroon View Post
No offense taken. I assumed it was partly tongue in cheek.
Yes no offense intended. It was more aimed at the fact that sometimes people will get going on a thread started by someone who never came back, and less aimed at the thread being started by someone who may never come back.

Glad to see you're back. This is an excellent place with excellent learning and quality guys. I haven't found anything remotely like it, so I hope you stay and get even half the benefit I have from it!

Boyd
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  #29  
Old May 18th, 2012, 11:53 AM
Winhamness Winhamness is offline
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Originally Posted by heftysmurf View Post
Her issues lie within her
This is a critical nugget of advice that is just starting to make sense to me.

My wife's problems...are my wife's problems. Not mine. I don't need to fix her problems.

Maroon, your wives hissy fit is her problem. Not yours. You don't need to fix it.

Your problem, is your bills. Go fix that.
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  #30  
Old May 21st, 2012, 09:29 AM
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Well, a lot transpired over the end of the week. With freeze out in full effect, I got a call from my W towards the end of the day asking in the nicest of voices if we were still on for going to visit my grandfolks (we see them on Thursdays regularly) I said yes, but was flabbergasted by the change. My suspicion was that my W was tired of being cold and didn't really want to fight anymore but that she also didn't want to own or acknowledge her mistakes, so she was simply pretending that nothing had happened.

Well, I didn't want to just pretend that everything was OK and that nothing had happened. I wanted her to know that I wasn't about to nod my head in approval of this strategy, so I stayed really quiet. I was polite but very short, and while we were spending time with my grandfolks I played nice. When we left, I went right back to near silence, but tried to make it more of a "I'm disinterested in you" silence versus a "I'm mad at you" silence. She got the hint, because she went right back into freeze out mode. We got home and I went about my routine and then went to bed.

So we're a few hours into night number three of her sleeping on the couch and I started thinking about what the hell this was accomplishing. I didn't want to be seen as apologetic and weak, but no communication can really do a number on a marriage as some of you pointed out ( I understand it would be her fault if that was the case, but that isn't what I wanted to happen) so I was trying to think of how I could cut this freeze out BS short while still taking the helm.

And then I went downstairs, woke my W up and asked her what she was doing. I said I figured that after two solid days of freeze out she would have thawed a bit and been willing to address the issue and that she even seemed to earlier that day, but that I wasn't about to play along with pretending that nothing had happened. She messed up, acted inappropriately, said some pretty nasty things, and she needed to acknowledge that. I told her that her making mistakes didn't make her less valuable of a person. I said I wanted to be in a relationship with someone who wants to be in a relationship with me. I asked her if she wanted to be in a relationship with me and she said "yes". I told her there was a place in our bed for her, but that I wasn't going to beg her to come upstairs. It'd have to be her choice. Then I said good night and went upstairs by myself. She came along about five minutes later.

I feel good about it. Some of you guys might think I compromised (and yeah, maybe I did). Nobody went from NG to IM in a day. But I feel like I accomplished both ends. I got my wife back to talking and interacting and I didn't have to submit/plead/beg/apologize to do it. I also did it by being completely open and honest about it. I'd been reading MMSL lately and how Athol talked about the "Gamma male", the blend of being Alpha and Beta, and how you should lead your W, but care about her at the same time, and that's the mindset I tried to manage the situation under. I didn't beg for her to come upstairs, I led her upstairs.
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