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Old April 11th, 2007, 01:33 PM
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Setting the Tone, Taking the Lead

As a marriage therapist, I have spent the last 25 years listening to men and women talk about their relationships. Overwhelmingly, women tell me their number one issue is TRUST.

Obviously, women lose trust when their man tells lies. But it goes beyond that. They feel unsafe when their man won’t keep his word and won’t follow through. They get tired of not knowing what is going on inside their man’s head. They hate being forced to make all of the decisions. They resent their man’s passivity and passive-aggressiveness.

Women lose trust when their man won’t set the tone and take the lead. All too often, a woman has to take over the man’s job by default because the guy won’t do it. When a woman takes the lead, the guy assumes she must want to be in charge. Even though she doesn’t, once she has gotten behind the wheel, she won’t let go until she is convinced she can trust her man to take over and drive.

Women want to feel safe more than anything else. They naturally look to men for security (it starts with daddy and continues into adulthood in their intimate relationships with men). If they can’t trust the man in their life to make them feel safe, they are forced into taking charge.

When a man fails to lead and set the tone, the woman feels unsafe, loses trust in the man, loses sexual desire for him, has to escalate testing behavior, and has to become controlling (not a pretty sight).

When a man forces the woman to set the tone and take the lead, he becomes frustrated, resentful, emotionally unavailable, manipulative, passive-aggressive, and moody (also not a pretty sight).

I know the concept of leading and following seems almost old fashioned in our “modern” society. Yet someone has to set the tone. No matter how much you hear about equality and 50/50 relationships, they still make cars with only one steering wheel and televisions with only one remote. When it all comes down to it, someone has to lead.

It never ceases to amaze me that when I address the issue of men building trust with women by setting the tone and taking the lead, the women always nod in agreement. I have yet to have one single woman interrupt me and say, “Excuse me, but I would rather set the tone and take the lead in our relationship.”

When I talk about setting the tone and taking the lead, I’m not about talking about men being controlling, manipulative, selfish, making every decision, or having everything go their way.

I’m talking about a man deciding what he wants and inviting a woman to join him. If the man leads, the woman has a choice to follow or not. He isn’t forcing her to do anything. But she doesn’t have a choice if he doesn’t clearly lead or let her know what direction he is going.

A woman can’t follow where a man doesn’t lead!

When a man sets the tone and takes the lead, it actually opens the door for a reciprocal relationship with a woman. Masculine leadership makes “give and take” possible. When a man is passive, it prevents any kind of shared decision making.

It doesn’t matter if you are a single guy looking for love or a married man in a committed relationship, the principles remain the same.

Have a plan, don’t force her to make all the decisions. Tell her what you want to do, she can always offer a counter plan. Give her something to respond to. Asking her what she wants to do or giving her too many options is not the way to make a woman happy.

Tell your woman what you are thinking, what you are feeling, and what you want. Don’t make her guess or read your mind. Don’t wait for her to bring up problems in the relationship, its not her job and will make her feel like a nag. If there is something in your head, let her in on it. Don’t let resentment fester and build inside you until you blow up or lash out in passive-aggressive ways. Deal with things NOW!

Always treat a woman with love and respect.

Don’t keep secrets. Always tell the truth. Don’t do anything behind your woman’s back. Always do what you say you are going to do. Don’t procrastinate. Finish what you start.

A few months ago I was sitting in the bar of a local restaurant with some men who had taken one of my dating classes. An attractive waitress I know walked by our table. I said “Jessica, come here, I want to ask you a question.” I asked, “How do you like it when the guy you are dating leaves all the decisions up to you and repeatedly asks you what you want to do?” Without hesitation, Jessica emphatically retorted, “IT IRRITATES ME!” I thanked her for her candid response and turned back to the guys and smiled.

Want to make a woman happy? Set the tone, take the lead. Be a man your woman can trust!

Robert

Dating Essentials for Men Q&A Podcast
http://www.nomoremrniceguy.com/de_podcast.php
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  #2  
Old April 11th, 2007, 07:37 PM
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I totally agree.

For the newbies, not only here but in life, please explain how a man is supposed to take the lead when Western Culture brainwashes everyone (men and women) into believing and acting that women are equal to men, should be treated equal etc, should have equal opportunities (and espcially equal or more favorable outcomes). Would the men who would like to lead be better off looking for a women who is more inclined to follow, or should men attempt at best a "Taming of the Shrew"?

Wouldn't prescribing "Leading" for men imply that there is a superior/subordinate relationship, or that there should be for proper functioning of a male female relationship instead of the recently time honored (all of 40 years time honored) equality? We're surrounded by messages, as well as actions from both sexes, oddly enough, that uphold the concept that state that men and women are equal. Would the correct form be to attempt to lead and if the woman doesn't respond by following, or only following when it's convenient to then assume that she's unfit to be a wife and mother, at least for a guy that's attempting to be a real man instead of some compliant stand-in as a husband accessory for some woman's life? Could we assume that women who don't follow when a man leads are somehow defective and broken, at least as far as a prospective mate goes, possibly with some sort of label to indicate such?

Last edited by FatherKnowsBest; April 11th, 2007 at 08:46 PM..
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Old April 12th, 2007, 08:56 AM
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[quote=FatherKnowsBest;147185]
Quote:
Western Culture brainwashes everyone (men and women) into believing and acting that women are equal to men, should be treated equal etc, should have equal opportunities
What our society does is confuse "equality" with "entitled to the same rights and freedoms". To state that all people are "equal" (regardless of sex, or any other identifiable trait...) is a lie. But, I believe all people are entitled to the same rights and freedoms; a.k.a. "treated equally", and "have equal opportunities".

Quote:
Could we assume that women who don't follow when a man leads are somehow defective and broken, at least as far as a prospective mate goes, possibly with some sort of label to indicate such?
Inasmuch as we say the same of Nice Guys, yes. It's all connected.
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Old April 12th, 2007, 01:01 PM
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[quote=dlr;147212]
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Originally Posted by FatherKnowsBest View Post
What our society does is confuse "equality" with "entitled to the same rights and freedoms". To state that all people are "equal" (regardless of sex, or any other identifiable trait...) is a lie. But, I believe all people are entitled to the same rights and freedoms; a.k.a. "treated equally", and "have equal opportunities".


Inasmuch as we say the same of Nice Guys, yes. It's all connected.
If we treat everyone equally, how is a man to lead then, if he's at the same rank as the people he's supposed to be leading, and how are the people who allegedly wish to follow suppose to follow when equality states that she's equal to her partner? My guess is a lot of women, say they want a leader, but then want to dictate how they want to be lead, or that when face with the prospect of actually letting the man lead, which would dictate that they actually be subordinate to their husband, they erally don't like the sounds of it and back off. I'd venture to guess very few women want to make the true concessions necessary for the man to be the leader, ie, the women need to be subordinate followers. I suspect that a majority like the idea of a strong leader, when it's convenient, but have no qualms about renegging on their part of the deal when it doesn't suit them. Then we're back to square one and telling the guy he needs to be a leader, when in reality the woman needs to be a follower before the guy can even have a shot at being the leader. It's that old saying, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink." I'd have to imagine that for a larrge majority of men, when that actually attempt to lead, will cause major stress in their relationships with their significant others. Which is inline with what Dr. Glover said in the book that when men breakout of NG mode, either their relationships (marriage, girlfriend) either get betting or dissolve. I'm wagering that at least 75% dissolve because dispite what the other half half to say, actually being lead is not up their alley, but then they'll complain about what they don't have due to not following, but not be aware that it's due to their not following and will consequently have the same problems with some other guy with the usual "There aren't any good guys out there." complaint.

I like the example with the waitress. I'd kick it up a notch and up the ante if I were there. How FAR would she be willing to be lead. Would she be willing to be lead from the BMW dealership to the Kia dealership because the guy felt that was better for their overall finances, or would that be the deal breaker? How about being lead to cut off contact with 'guy friends' considering she's now in a significant relationship. Or would that issue have to wait to come up in Pre-Cana classes where they in fact discuss that issue. How about being lead to scale back on their housing needs in preparation for the children she wants, would she be willing to be lead there, or would she draw the line at that point and say she has a right to choose where they live considering she earns half the income that will eventually either go to daycare or diminish or disappear due to possibly deciding to stay home with children? How far is she willing to be lead for her own good and the family's good? I think the "to what extent" is just as important as the alleged willingness to be led.

So when the waitress says she wants the guy to have more of a spine and be more decisive, is it for meaningless things like datenight arrangments to give her the fleeting feeling of having the guy in charge, or will he be allowed to rule on the really important issues too?

As far as trust we may also inquire as to what she's mistrusting? What if what she's mistrusting is that, given the example above, she wants to be able to trust that even though he's taking the reigns publicly to affect the illusion that she's with a "real man", would certain women be mistrustful of the fact that if she were in fact with a true real man, that his decision would override hers ultimately, and therefore she'd be mistrustful of the fact that she likes the idea of the guy 'being in charge' when it comes to meaningless stuff like datenight, when the chips are down, she still wants to call the shots, so she gets to have her cake and eat it too, thereby undermining the guy's true ability to lead. These are good questions and issues that go along with getting men to lead. Best way to drive a manager crazy is to give him responsibility with no control.
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Old April 12th, 2007, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by DrGlover View Post
It never ceases to amaze me that when I address the issue of men building trust with women by setting the tone and taking the lead, the women always nod in agreement. I have yet to have one single woman interrupt me and say, “Excuse me, but I would rather set the tone and take the lead in our relationship.”
Never listen to what a woman says, listen to what she does.
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Old April 12th, 2007, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FatherKnowsBest View Post
If we treat everyone equally, how is a man to lead then, if he's at the same rank as the people he's supposed to be leading, and how are the people who allegedly wish to follow suppose to follow when equality states that she's equal to her partner?
Let me clarify the difference between LEADING and DICTATING. A leader is followed because he is looked up to, admired, trusted, and respected. Not because he is in some profound way "superior" to those he leads. Those who follow CHOOSE to follow, on their own free will.

A person who requires some MORAL ABSOLUTE stating that I AM SUPERIOR TO THIS PERSON, THEREFORE THEY MUST FOLLOW MY LEAD....that is not a leader. That is a dictator.

A leader leads out of abundance and confidence. A dictator rules out of fear and insecurity. Women want REAL men; a.k.a. "leaders". But, for lack of many in modern society, women often mistake the arrogant facade of the "bad boy" for leadership...and wind up with a real jerk-off who dictates from a place of fear.
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Old April 12th, 2007, 01:42 PM
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When I talk about setting the tone and taking the lead, I’m not about talking about men being controlling, manipulative, selfish, making every decision, or having everything go their way.
What he says makes sense. Life is not just about an adversarial struggle of the supremacy of one person's interests over another. Who gets to take their thumb and erase the other person out is not the prime question here

There was a study done of dog and wolf packs. The alpha dog it turns out is not overtly struggling to win out over the other dogs. The tier below him, conversely, is full of struggling, arguing, fearful, social climbing dogs vying for importance. The alpha dog just is, calmly.

We can't all be alpha in the world, but we must be alphas in our own lives and not give ourselves over to anyone else. But that is not consistent with being constantly fearful of anyone else getting one over on us, constantly monitoring our own dominance and place in the home and in our own lives. That is not coming from a place of strength, but of fear.

An IM comes from a place of abundance because he knows he will not allow himself to be dominated or led through passivity, supplication, or fear. He is the leader in his own life and from that place of calm abundance and lack of fear has the compassion and generosity to give others their due, to hear and respect the needs of his SO at the same time that he never abandons his own needs, his own self, ever.
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Old April 12th, 2007, 01:51 PM
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I like the example with the waitress. I'd kick it up a notch and up the ante if I were there. How FAR would she be willing to be lead. Would she be willing to be lead from the BMW dealership to the Kia dealership because the guy felt that was better for their overall finances, or would that be the deal breaker? How about being lead to cut off contact with 'guy friends' considering she's now in a significant relationship. Or would that issue have to wait to come up in Pre-Cana classes where they in fact discuss that issue. How about being lead to scale back on their housing needs in preparation for the children she wants, would she be willing to be lead there, or would she draw the line at that point and say she has a right to choose where they live considering she earns half the income that will eventually either go to daycare or diminish or disappear due to possibly deciding to stay home with children? How far is she willing to be lead for her own good and the family's good? I think the "to what extent" is just as important as the alleged willingness to be led.

FKB - Love your comments. So true. Easy fix though, date a woman that can take care of herself, both mentally, and financially. Found one. May not have as small as ass, but that small ass has cost me more heartache.

I think most women want a man to lead them to the nearest ATM, or even the bank to get them an ATM card that of course draws out of the man's account. Then they "pay" us back by spreading their legs, where we have to take charge again.

There is a serious problem in a society where the divorce rate is over 50%. People have forgotten what a marriage is all about, two people building a life, raising and bringing children into this world, etc. Instead it's how can I screw this idiot into giving me half of his estate, by doing absolutely the least possible, and even complaining about it.
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Old April 12th, 2007, 02:00 PM
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Let me clarify the difference between LEADING and DICTATING. A leader is followed because he is looked up to, admired, trusted, and respected. Not because he is in some profound way "superior" to those he leads. Those who follow CHOOSE to follow, on their own free will.

A person who requires some MORAL ABSOLUTE stating that I AM SUPERIOR TO THIS PERSON, THEREFORE THEY MUST FOLLOW MY LEAD....that is not a leader. That is a dictator.

A leader leads out of abundance and confidence. A dictator rules out of fear and insecurity. Women want REAL men; a.k.a. "leaders". But, for lack of many in modern society, women often mistake the arrogant facade of the "bad boy" for leadership...and wind up with a real jerk-off who dictates from a place of fear.
Regardless of the semantics, leading entails decision making, is a decision not a dictate. Again, you're getting hung up on the feelings attached to words. A decision may in fact entail dictating, especially when it's involves leadership. I believe you're negatively associating "dictating" with "dictatorial tirant". They're not the same thing, but a decision may in fact entail dictates, oh well, deal with it. It's just semantics. No reason to attach disjointed feelings with it.
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Old April 12th, 2007, 02:04 PM
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I like the example with the waitress. I'd kick it up a notch and up the ante if I were there. How FAR would she be willing to be lead. Would she be willing to be lead from the BMW dealership to the Kia dealership because the guy felt that was better for their overall finances, or would that be the deal breaker? How about being lead to cut off contact with 'guy friends' considering she's now in a significant relationship. Or would that issue have to wait to come up in Pre-Cana classes where they in fact discuss that issue. How about being lead to scale back on their housing needs in preparation for the children she wants, would she be willing to be lead there, or would she draw the line at that point and say she has a right to choose where they live considering she earns half the income that will eventually either go to daycare or diminish or disappear due to possibly deciding to stay home with children? How far is she willing to be lead for her own good and the family's good? I think the "to what extent" is just as important as the alleged willingness to be led.

FKB - Love your comments. So true. Easy fix though, date a woman that can take care of herself, both mentally, and financially. Found one. May not have as small as ass, but that small ass has cost me more heartache.

I think most women want a man to lead them to the nearest ATM, or even the bank to get them an ATM card that of course draws out of the man's account. Then they "pay" us back by spreading their legs, where we have to take charge again.

There is a serious problem in a society where the divorce rate is over 50%. People have forgotten what a marriage is all about, two people building a life, raising and bringing children into this world, etc. Instead it's how can I screw this idiot into giving me half of his estate, by doing absolutely the least possible, and even complaining about it.
I have an antidote for you. Stop offering women material gifts in hopes that they'll love you. Don't do anything now that you won't want to be doing in ten years. Showering someone with gifts corrupts. If you hold out money in your hand and someone comes running, that ain't love, it's just appealing to the worst side of human nature. If you appeal to the worst aspects of people's characters, you'll get the worst in return for your troubles.
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Old April 12th, 2007, 02:07 PM
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pinseeker/or midnight said..tell her what you want to do..it's her decision whether
to follow or not....

that's all it is....
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Old April 12th, 2007, 02:12 PM
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I don't offer women material gifts. I have women, like the last, ask me for something, most of the time with those "puppy dog eyes" like the Coach purses. I think I do it more out of fear that "if I don't."

I need to just "take the lead" and say no. It's kind of hard for "such a woman" who knows how much money I make to accept that decision. Then you get the "you don't treat me right back."

Again the cycle starts all over again.

If you were the woman, and your boyfriend of three years makes 5 times your salary, is able to furnish his house with elaborate furnishings, how would you feel?

As I said, first find a woman who can take care of herself, both mentally and financially. This type of woman won't have the strong need for a man to "show his love" through material gifts.
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Old April 12th, 2007, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by FatherKnowsBest View Post
Regardless of the semantics, leading entails decision making, is a decision not a dictate. Again, you're getting hung up on the feelings attached to words. A decision may in fact entail dictating, especially when it's involves leadership. I believe you're negatively associating "dictating" with "dictatorial tirant". They're not the same thing, but a decision may in fact entail dictates, oh well, deal with it. It's just semantics. No reason to attach disjointed feelings with it.
Quote:
Let me clarify the difference between LEADING and DICTATING. A leader is followed because he is looked up to, admired, trusted, and respected. Not because he is in some profound way "superior" to those he leads. Those who follow CHOOSE to follow, on their own free will.
That isn't feelings, it's reality. There is a profound difference between the two.
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Old April 12th, 2007, 02:30 PM
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Trust

Respect/Faith
Are The Keystones
In The Relationship Equation
Additionally
A Condom Still Is Only Designed
For One Occupant @
Well Ya All Get The Idea

Dr. G
Said It Best
Lead Follow
Or Get Out
Of
The Way

The World Is Full Of
Jessicas
I'd Have An
Isabella Anyday





Hmmm
Sounds Like Politics




Quote:
There was a study done of dog and wolf packs. The alpha dog it turns out is not overtly struggling to win out over the other dogs. The tier below him, conversely, is full of struggling, arguing, fearful, social climbing dogs vying for importance. The alpha dog just is, calmly.
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Old April 12th, 2007, 02:37 PM
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That isn't feelings, it's reality. There is a profound difference between the two.
And the reality is the semantics I just clarified.
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