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Old July 1st, 2011, 03:12 PM
freedrestraints freedrestraints is offline
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Question How to Handle a Wife who doesn't want to touch at all?

I've said this in different ways in different places, but I just want to reiterate my situation and ask for advice *again*.

My wife is not physically affectionate to me.
- No affectionate touches or hugs (been a couple of years)
- Definitely no kissing
- No initiating sex

I used to initiate touching, and sex. I last initated sex with her 9 months ago but I stopped when she said she just didn't want it.

I have made moves to touch her at various times over the past year, but she typically gets annoyed, says "what are you doing?", "stop it", or leaves.

I still get the urge to touch her from time to time.

My main strategy for now is to try to move on with my life without her, and focus on exercise or other activities when I feel the need to touch her.

Still, I feel these urges.

Is it right to continue to ignore these urges, and move on with my life, eventually to divorce?

Or, should I express my urge, and when I feel a need to touch her I reach for her, even though it seems like I am getting a 100% rejection rate? Should I absorb the rejection and just not get mad about it nd move on, but still express my desire for her when I feel it?

Basically, otherwise I am just focused on myself and waiting for her to initiate something, which seems like never.

Sorry to be so blockheaded about these things.

I just feel like, why should I be afraid of expressing my true feelings, and then accept being rejected?
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  #2  
Old July 1st, 2011, 03:36 PM
bootstrapped bootstrapped is offline
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Tough sitch, man, sorry to hear. I'd say between this and her past BS with the webcam guys...you should plan on walking away. BUT...I know that you've said you don't want to do that b/c of your kids. I stay for mine as well, so I can somewhat relate. If you want to give up on her, just keep working on yourself. You may find happiness that way.

If you want to keep trying, go with babysteps and keep at it. I was never overly affectionate with W, but my resentment let it drop to close to zero (other than duty s*x) in the 5+ years before I came to this site. I then decided to change that. Started touching her in non-s*xual ways - a hug, a touch on her arm, etc. as I walked by. Her initial reaction for a month or so was, "WTH are you doing? That's weird from you." She probably assumed I was doing this only to get tail. I'd go for a hug and she'd drop her arms. She'd flinch if I touched her arm/leg. I'd go to kiss her and get a turned cheek.

I stuck with it and eventually got good feedback. Now, I give her a good hug (she hugs back) when I leave/arrive home, or if we've had a fight, or sometimes for no reason. At some point I announced that she wasn't my FN grandma, and I wasn't kissing her cheek any longer. Now I get lips...nothing passionate from her, but it's better. I've also built up to grabbing that azz now and then for no reason...like the good ol days. If she apologizes to me after giving me shyte over something, she can count on getting a light slap on her azz as she walks away. So...I don't know, might be worth one last shot by you...if you still care enough about her. Good luck.
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Last edited by bootstrapped; July 1st, 2011 at 03:59 PM..
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  #3  
Old July 1st, 2011, 03:53 PM
Still Standing Still Standing is offline
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You are not wrong to feel these urges to touch your wife. She obviously has major issues to deal with, hence your presence here with us on the board.

This is an opportunity for you to lead, though. You have to set the example. To defer your desire to hug or touch her in the name of not upsetting her is NG. More IM would be making efforts to hug/touch without any expectation of reciprocity.

That would be the killer for me, though. To make that effort and stay cool in the face of no response would get pretty old. Are you strong enough to handle consistent rejection? Her continued rejection of participation will be one way to kill your desire for touch.

It's all about establishing habits and norms. If you establish a norm that institutionalizes "no touch," you are just that much further from getting things back on a normal footing.

At the end of the day, what's the worst that can happen? Can she treat you worse than she already does? At the end of the day, it probably do little to sway her outlook. But, then again, persistant well-intentioned efforts could be the first step on the road to recovery.

In short, listen to your gut and do what you want to do without fear of repurcussions.
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Old July 1st, 2011, 05:19 PM
freedrestraints freedrestraints is offline
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OK, I tried a little experiment.

I went to her bed where she was lying down and moved to hug/touch her. She blew up. We argued/discussed for like 45 minutes.

She said she was disgusted being touched by me.
There were too many words said to summarize here, there was some yelling.

She says she can't stand being touched by someone who "hides behind her", or "is a back-stabber". What she is trying to refer to especially is in the parenting of our eldest daughter, I have been too much of a doormat and she has been the disciplinarian.

Our daughter is 13 and very difficult to manage right now. She and her mom are very estranged right now. Neither is in counseling, nor is willing, so everything is "do it yourself" in terms of strategies. My NG tendencies have made things worse, but my wife has been abusive and my daughter has been difficult.

Unfortunately, now that I think about it I don't see things getting better unless the situation with my daughter improves. I'm not sure that it will, given the way things are going. Why would my wife not be willing to value our own relationship no matter what the situation with the daughter?

Wife says she does not want to divorce but wants to be left alone. She does not feel anything for me.

I don't even know if the information I learned was useful. I guess I will just decide not to touch her, though.
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  #5  
Old July 1st, 2011, 05:22 PM
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chevy1947 chevy1947 is offline
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Freed:

I have not been on your posts and I have a few questions:

How long have you been married?

Did you have good sex before or in the early stage of the marriage?

Why do you think she is acting like this?

Comment: Sex is often where the focus becomes but it usually is a symptom of other problems.

Has there been any issues or things you have done that could have turned her off?

Have you tried therapy?

Have you ever asked her to sit down and talk to you about issues?

Comment: don't make sex the focus of the talk but what are the issues.

Here is the question that you won't like:

Do you think there is another man in the wings she is seeing?

Healthy men and woman enjoy sex and if you are going without so is she.

healthy men and woman enjoy affection even if its not sex.

Not wanting any affection and not saying really why is a big red flag.

In my case my wife stopped kissing me for a number of years / all sorts of excuses yet we had sex.

In my case kissing me to her was like cheating on her affair partner who I was clueless about or in total denial.

One thing for sure, your situation will not improve by you trying to touch and get affection, if it did I would tell you to pick her up and throw her on the bed and get to it.

I wish you luck.
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Old July 1st, 2011, 05:53 PM
freedrestraints freedrestraints is offline
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Chevy,

Married 17 years.

Sex was okay but not great before our first child was born. Sex was the best, briefly, when we were trying for our third child 8 years ago. Then things went downhill with issues with the older daughter flaring up - I tried to cope like NG on steroids.

I think my wife is acting like this because 1) she fell out of love with me because I was acting like a NG, and 2) she has no commitment to work on the marriage or character to uphold it, she just likes to follow her feelings.

Other major category of turnoff which I did a lot of in the past was not expressing my true opinions to relatives and keeping silent about politics or religion. At Thanksgiving I would clam up when I disagreed. My wife felt abandoned and betrayed when she would openly say something (which I often would partly or mostly agree with) in disagreement with relatives and I would either find a way to gloss things over, change the subject or keep silent. That was the worst from 2002-2006, but she remembers it like yesterday.

We did some counseling but she is no longer willing. I have done my own individual counseling from time to time but recently have run out of money and can afford little of it now.

We have talked about various issues at various times. Some things have gotten better but in general it rarely helps all that much. I think working on myself alone with NMMNG and similar makes more consistent progress (though maybe doesn't help the marriage).

I don't think there is another man in the wings right now, but I think there will be eventually if things between me and her don't improve. I can't say for certain if there is or not, but I see enough visible problems without worrying about the invisibles.

I think neither me nor my wife are necessarily that "healthy", but I feel optimistic about myself because I think I am beginning to get a handle on my own issues.
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Old July 1st, 2011, 06:09 PM
checked checked is offline
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Quote:
Unfortunately, now that I think about it I don't see things getting better unless the situation with my daughter improves. I'm not sure that it will, given the way things are going. Why would my wife not be willing to value our own relationship no matter what the situation with the daughter?

No. This is a covert contract in the making.


Yep you fucked up by being a doormat...yada yada yada.....


Bullshit.

She told you EXACTLY what you did wrong and you are responding like a doormat again. You cant argue someone INTO wet panties( except maybe female lawyers --but lawyers aint human...).

So whats the only option left? A 2 pronged approach.

1) Work on yourself--gym, guys nights out etc. BFE's.

2) Ramp things up. Get in her space, grab her ass, walk in front of her with a hardon. Do not let her alone. When she goes ballistic...... push the buttons even more-- but DO NOT act needy. This WILL piss her off since you're so disgusting .....and when your wife says that to you what do you have to lose by standing up to her? Push her to the edge...then laugh while you push her over. This will show her you still are a Man (see the capital M?).

One last thing -- if it was me...... I would cultivate jealousy. Nothing overt.....just the hint. Maybe walk away when you get a call......be late from work.....
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Old July 1st, 2011, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freedrestraints View Post
We did some counseling but she is no longer willing. I have done my own individual counseling from time to time but recently have run out of money and can afford little of it now.
If this was me, I would prioritize counselling. If she refused, I'd hit the exit. Man, you don't deserve this. I used to get scraps of affection from the W. Much of what you say rings true for me. In the end, the W said that you didn't need to have sex to have a happy marriage. And she refused to take any responsibility for dealing with her own crap about touch and sexual shame.

The sex has been great with several different women since I left and got divorced. If you don't have a partner in your transformation, don't waste any more of your life beating a dead horse.
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  #9  
Old July 1st, 2011, 06:25 PM
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chevy1947 chevy1947 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freedrestraints View Post
Chevy,

Married 17 years.

Sex was okay but not great before our first child was born. Sex was the best, briefly, when we were trying for our third child 8 years ago. Then things went downhill with issues with the older daughter flaring up - I tried to cope like NG on steroids.
We went through problems with teenage children but so do all parents.
[/quote]

I think my wife is acting like this because 1) she fell out of love with me because I was acting like a NG, and 2) she has no commitment to work on the marriage or character to uphold it, she just likes to follow her feelings.
[/quote]

OK lets say you were a full blown nice guy as described in the book from cover to cover, does that excuse her from abusing you?

You make comment throughout your posts about you think, well you can think what you want but what has your wife actually said bothers her?

falling out of love?? OK lets try to buy that but then why does she stay with you?? why not say I am sorry I just don't feel anything for you any longer and both of you divorce and move your seperate ways and still share the kids? Why just stay and both be in pain?

again to me these are red flags.
Quote:

Other major category of turnoff which I did a lot of in the past was not expressing my true opinions to relatives and keeping silent about politics or religion. At Thanksgiving I would clam up when I disagreed. My wife felt abandoned and betrayed when she would openly say something (which I often would partly or mostly agree with) in disagreement with relatives and I would either find a way to gloss things over, change the subject or keep silent. That was the worst from 2002-2006, but she remembers it like yesterday.
Well she is an idiot and you were smarter / just what you want at the thanksgiving table an arguement over religion and politics.

Now what you should have said is: family hers or yours, this is thanksgiving and I am thankfull we are all here and healthy, please lets not ruin this by fighting over politics and religion. If they persist say, sorry but this day is special and you are not engaging so you and your family will be leaving and if they don't stop get up, get the wife and kids and leave.

That is being somewhat IM.

Maybe I should have sad at the dinner table , honey why didn't you and your sister hide the booze from your drunk ass pervert old man. there you
go I would have stood up and taken most peoples side.

these arguement serve no purpose

no taking her side at thanksgiving is bullshit and a smoke screen.

you however did pussy out by doing the same thing time in and time out.

guess what we all made those mistakes.

Quote:
We did some counseling but she is no longer willing. I have done my own individual counseling from time to time but recently have run out of money and can afford little of it now.

We have talked about various issues at various times. Some things have gotten better but in general it rarely helps all that much. I think working on myself alone with NMMNG and similar makes more consistent progress (though maybe doesn't help the marriage).
OK what she is saying and doing is telling you she can't stand you, does not want your touch, refuses to go to therapy because I bet she will say its all you and she is fine.

working on yourself is what you have to do but in all honesty how can you have a marriage if there is only one person working at it?
Quote:


I don't think there is another man in the wings right now, but I think there will be eventually if things between me and her don't improve. I can't say for certain if there is or not, but I see enough visible problems without worrying about the invisibles.

I think neither me nor my wife are necessarily that "healthy", but I feel optimistic about myself because I think I am beginning to get a handle on my own issues.
I hope there is not another man around or was around.

I would bet more than 1/2 the guys here will say to you this shows signs of at least a emotional affair if not a physical one, now or in the past.

again I could be wrong but regardless this are not right and you have to move forward and you are right, you start with yourself.

Question: when things started getting worse did she change friends or get a new girlfriend or neighbor?

Question: new hobbies / volunteer work?

Question: lots of time on facebook or the computer?

Question: is she a stay at home mom?

Question: Instead of thinking what is wrong what has your wife said to you is wrong??
__________________
Don't take the bait.

Find your self respect, if you do not respect yourself
why would anybody else respect you?

unlike fine wine unresolved problems do not get better with age

A wife or girlfriend like a husband or boyfriend can
be changed or replaced your children are yours for
life don't forget them in your recovery
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Old July 1st, 2011, 06:48 PM
freedrestraints freedrestraints is offline
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Checked -

I am all for doing #1, but as far as #2 is concerned I am not mentally ready

"2) Ramp things up. Get in her space, grab her ass, walk in front of her with a hardon. Do not let her alone. When she goes ballistic...... push the buttons even more-- but DO NOT act needy. This WILL piss her off since you're so disgusting .....and when your wife says that to you what do you have to lose by standing up to her? Push her to the edge...then laugh while you push her over. This will show her you still are a Man (see the capital M?)"

I have a hard time doing that yet without coming across as needy or strange. After I have worked out for a few months and am more confident of my body I will see if my attitude changes.
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Old July 1st, 2011, 06:51 PM
freedrestraints freedrestraints is offline
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Reborn, re "hitting the exit", I am going in that direction but I have only been on the forum for a few months and am only beginning to change myself. I want to give myself time to change before I give up on her or the marriage.
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Old July 1st, 2011, 06:57 PM
freedrestraints freedrestraints is offline
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Chevy - she says she is comfortable to stay married as long as I leave her alone. She is worried about what her lifestyle would be like if divorced.

"Well she is an idiot and you were smarter / just what you want at the thanksgiving table an arguement over religion and politics."
Thanks for saying that, it's kind of my original reasoning but I could not articulate it well.
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Old July 1st, 2011, 06:59 PM
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never again never again is offline
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Get out. Mine gritted her teeth and physically pulled away from me. Only place I was allowed to touch her was her back.If I went to kiss her, she tipped her forehead, like she was the fucking Queen. It was heart-rending. And this was a woman who initiated sex, and was full-on fucking 4-5 times a week before the "change". After 3.5 years of it, I just couldn't take it any more and left.
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Old July 1st, 2011, 07:08 PM
freedrestraints freedrestraints is offline
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Question: when things started getting worse did she change friends or get a new girlfriend or neighbor?
Not appreciably, no.

Question: new hobbies / volunteer work?
No, not really. Same patterns.

Question: lots of time on facebook or the computer?
Yes to computer but no to Facebook. She used to do cybersex via Yahoo messenger with military guys on her webcam but she claimed to stop and it seemed to have stopped, but I no longer check because I felt it was not helping me. It was mostly her stripteasing to guys masturbating. She appeared to be getting close to EAs with a couple of guys. She admitted she met 2 guys in person but says it was just saying hi.

Question: is she a stay at home mom?
Yes. Will not show any motivation to get a part time job, and we could use the income. She always claims there are no jobs out there because the economy is collapsing.

Question: Instead of thinking what is wrong what has your wife said to you is wrong??
She says what is wrong is that I am a "wussy guy" which she is not attracted to. If I was alpha apparently all would be well with the world. She openly ridicules the idea that she might be seeing someone else.

Meanwhile I bust my ass every day at work *sigh*.
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Old July 1st, 2011, 07:08 PM
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CrystalPalace CrystalPalace is offline
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I'm sorry you're going through this. It must be really painful.

I know this is easy for me to say as an armchair quarterback, but I'd plan on getting out if I were you. Here's why:

* I don't think you're doing your children the benefit you think you're providing them by staying in a loveless marriage. One of our biggest responsibilities as parents is to model good marriages--so our children will have something to work from when they're married themselves. Modeling a "room mates" relationship isn't doing them any favors.

* I don't think you can trust that she's not doing something on the side. It doesn't sound like there was any reconciliation after she got caught doing the web cam stuff. The web cam stuff was really sick. She's got serious issues. I doubt she's reformed, she's just not getting caught.

* You deserve better as a human being than to be taking care of a partner who's not giving you the love, respect, and support you deserve. Not that you should be caretaking (give to get), but that you're not getting anything out of this relationship. You're not getting a lover or a friend. You're not getting a mother role model for your children.

* As a self-admitted NG, you've got you to work on and develop in yourself. On your own, as a single parent there are many opportunities to lead, develop self confidence, and grow. Those goals are obviously being made much more difficult in the environment you're in now.
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