The Likability Factor

[Tomson]

Originally Posted by Boricua

Usually, Nice Guys view the world as not accommodating to their needs, so why bother with having them?

I think your analysis is a little simplistic. The typical NG isn't that logical. He works on the premise that all things come to those that wait even though his experience tells him otherwise. He's a pessimistic optimist believing that if he only makes this change it will work out. Its a form of insanity because he won't see reason until he's forced to reconsider.

I didn't surround myself with assholes or crazed women - in fact I tended to avoid them. As a child I got my needs met and I've always tended to be truthful with people because I couldn't see the point in flattering someone to make them like me. However there was an underlying belief that I wasn't worth it and my NG traits bubbled to the surface through the pressure of a relationship.

[MountainMan]

Originally Posted by bluenorther

I'll never forget the time I asked someone to do something for me.
She had been my top client for eleven years, and never once in all that time had she bothered to come hang out with me while I'm doing the work she asked for.
I shoe horses for a living, and she teaches riding. Ever since I first got with this woman, I was hearing "Why don't you ask S__ out?" We had a few appointment-style dates, but nothing to signal any potential. It was too bad, because I really began to get attached to her.
One day she asked me in a phone message to put first-ever shoes on her new filly. I replied back that I'd be honored; would she honor ME, by being there?
Her next message found my button: "If you're not comfortable with me not being there", she would have her horse shod elsewhere.
I could have called her out on what she said and asked what she meant by it, but instead I went Victim-Puke. I was furious, this was a three-way insult, and it couldn't have been more economical with words if she'd planned it. All I asked for was a gesture of appreciation, but in refusing, she twisted my request around to make me seem like the offender, and then handed it back with an ultimatum. It's the sort of thing a sociopath would say.
I decided it was time to cut ties with her facility, which would mean a chunk of my income.
Luckily, cooler heads suggested that I not punish everyone for her issues, so I stayed on, but I don't work for her. I love the lady, but it's a pretty tense connection. I've offered her chances for us to meet and talk, but she refuses.
Her replacement for me kvetches about her attitude, too.

I have a guideline that has served me well which I suggest to other often. Don't date women who are into horses. They are all nuts.

[Boyd]

Originally Posted by Smoothcall

The doctor was a little bit unclear the way he used the pronoun "them", wasn't he? I would object to that in an interrogatory as being vague and ambiguous.

However, in the context of the post, it's clear that the assignment is for each Nice Guy to ask other people to do three things for the Nice Guy.

It's a great exercise. I'm going to do it. I'm going out tonight to hang with some friends. I usually offer to buy at least one of them a drink--wow--I'm thinking right now about asking one of them to buy me a drink and I'm feeling really uncomfortable about that.

Okay, I don't think I can do that. But I can refrain from offering to buy anyone a drink.

I think you should do the exercise, Smoothcall.

With one key factor: Detachment from outcome.

If they balk at you, great! If they buy a drink, great! If they laugh, great! If they berate you, set boundaries!

Boyd

[Boyd]

Originally Posted by Boricua

I asked and bummed plenty of things off of people as a Nice Guy. Of course, I did the whole victim spiel, sad face/sad eyes/defeated voice/excuses/sad story thing to get my way.

Now I just ask clear and direct, and I am willing to accept "no" as an answer.

I agree, it's not the "asking" part, it's the "detachment from outcome" part that is so important in this challenge.

Boyd

[almac1]

Ben Franklin effect- fascinating idea.
I just read Steve Jobs' biography. He was as far from being a NG as you can get- extremely demanding, very crude in speech, and stingy about pats on the back, yet he was famous for his ability to get people to do things for him. Many people that worked for and with him gushed about his ability to get them to perform at a higher level than they thought possible; and he brought out skills that they never knew they had.
I never thought about it this way before, but if Steve had been a nice, smiling, friendly boss Apple may never have grown the way it did. People wouldn't have worked as hard or cared as much.

[Tomson]

Originally Posted by almac1

I never thought about it this way before, but if Steve had been a nice, smiling, friendly boss Apple may never have grown the way it did. People wouldn't have worked as hard or cared as much.

True; and you have to admire him for his vision and what he achieved. But if all bosses were like Jobs suicides and time off for stress would go through the roof. He was, thankfully, unique.

[bluenorther]

Originally Posted by Boyd

I agree, it's not the "asking" part, it's the "detachment from outcome" part that is so important in this challenge.

Boyd

The whole point of these exercises has to do with achieving an outcome: making our lives better! If we're not attached to that outcome, what is the point of the exercises?

[bluenorther]

Originally Posted by MountainMan

I have a guideline that has served me well which I suggest to other often. Don't date women who are into horses. They are all nuts.

Too many of them have control issues. The one I mentioned sure has. I like to think they relate to horses the way they relate to men.
Fortunately (or not), most of them are overweight, married, middle-age dames and adolescent girls, with not much in between.
They're not all nuts, but the ones who are tend to be a lot more interesting!
I was dating a client a few years ago, and she pulled the plug on us, right before Christmas-- the third woman who's done that to me! She was my only real "office romance" in fifteen years. I've heard of other shoers routinely getting into their clients pants and it never turns out well. I have no idea who those women are.

[Cazador]

Originally Posted by JohnMcG

One of my stumbling blocks with Dr. Glover's writings is my perception that he takes a universal human feeling and pathologizes it...

I know this sounds defensive, and I acknowledge I am guilty of many of the Nice Guy behaviors, to the detriment of my career and relationships...

Still, I'm not convinced the impulse to be helpful, or even the expectation or reciprocity in relationships, is as sinister as Dr. Glover makes it out to be...

This is one of the trickiest things we deal with here. There is usually a pattern that people go through when, after years of being an approval addict, their pendulum swings wildly to the other side and we get questions like "is it OK to burp in front of a date?"

I don't think Dr. Glover pathologizes any of this: he draws a distinction between wanting to be liked (an normal and healthy desire) and approval-seeking. The line is not always clear but the key difference is focus; an Integrated Male (IM), like most healthy people, would rather be liked than not. The nice guy (NG) does too, but while the NG sells his soul for that approval the IM is too busy living life on his terms to focus too much on it; his passion and love for something is the motivation behind his actions. The likability factor for him is, if anything, secondary. For the NG the main motivator is being approved of, not necessarily the action itself.

The holy grail for many seems to be achieving some transcendental state where there is zero concern for whether one is liked or not. This is, IMO, neither realistic nor desirable. It's a simplistic beginner's mistake. No one is totally free from that desire and to kill it would also kill a better part of us. The point this: are you sharing off your plate because your heart is overflowing with generosity or because you expect a pat on the back? The answer to that has everything to do with the way one sees oneself.

[Smoothcall]

Originally Posted by Boyd

I think you should do the exercise, Smoothcall.

With one key factor: Detachment from outcome.

If they balk at you, great! If they buy a drink, great! If they laugh, great! If they berate you, set boundaries!

Boyd

Yes--I will do it. That night, I went out and made progress--I did not buy anyone a drink or offer to buy anyone a drink.

I'm not saying I offer to buy strangers drinks--but if I'm hanging out with friends, I will usually offer to buy one for somebody or maybe even just pick up the whole check.

I've made the stretch a few times and not done that.

But it's going to be a struggle for me to ask somebody else to buy me a drink.

It's more than wanting them to like me--I don't want them to think I'm broke.

And I'm not going to lie--I won't say something like, "Hey--I forgot my wallet--will you buy me a drink?"

[Ivan]

Originally Posted by Smoothcall

Yes--I will do it. That night, I went out and made progress--I did not buy anyone a drink or offer to buy anyone a drink.

I'm not saying I offer to buy strangers drinks--but if I'm hanging out with friends, I will usually offer to buy one for somebody or maybe even just pick up the whole check.

I've made the stretch a few times and not done that.

But it's going to be a struggle for me to ask somebody else to buy me a drink.

It's more than wanting them to like me--I don't want them to think I'm broke.

And I'm not going to lie--I won't say something like, "Hey--I forgot my wallet--will you buy me a drink?"

How about if you see they are nearing the bottom of their drink stating, "hey, I am going to hit the restroom, if you are going to get another drink would you mind grabbing me a beer?"

[Black]

Originally Posted by Smoothcall

Yes--I will do it. That night, I went out and made progress--I did not buy anyone a drink or offer to buy anyone a drink.

I'm not saying I offer to buy strangers drinks--but if I'm hanging out with friends, I will usually offer to buy one for somebody or maybe even just pick up the whole check.

I've made the stretch a few times and not done that.

But it's going to be a struggle for me to ask somebody else to buy me a drink.

It's more than wanting them to like me--I don't want them to think I'm broke.

And I'm not going to lie--I won't say something like, "Hey--I forgot my wallet--will you buy me a drink?"

Maybe you should try something that doesn't involve cash to begin. A simple request to grab you something from the fridge or come over and help you clean out your garage. Cash can be emotionally charged - for you and them.

[TaoZen]

As a child and throughout most of my life I learned never to need anyone's help for anything. Asking always involved compromise and often included personal and directed drama and discomfort. To survive I learned not to ask.

Now I see that I have spent all my life viewing everything that I do or want to do through those glasses first. If I have a large project that is difficult to achieve I instantly begin to think of ways to offset the disadvantages of doing it alone. I have become very good at this, and I have become very good at sidestepping the tasks I either just can't do alone, or require too much effort to do alone.

When the shit hit the fan I trust only myself. When I am anxious or uncertain I trust only myself. When want something I think only of how I can do it for myself and seldom get past that wall.

[Smoothcall]

Originally Posted by Ivan

How about if you see they are nearing the bottom of their drink stating, "hey, I am going to hit the restroom, if you are going to get another drink would you mind grabbing me a beer?"

Originally Posted by Black

Maybe you should try something that doesn't involve cash to begin. A simple request to grab you something from the fridge or come over and help you clean out your garage. Cash can be emotionally charged - for you and them.

Thanks guys. Yes, the issue with cash makes it tougher. I can ask people to do things for me that don't involve cash or a great deal of effort.

Another issue arises with me, in addition to the likability factor: The feelings I have when I get a "no". Not long ago, I was at a party with a lot of friends--People that I've had as guests in my home, I've been to their weddings, birthdays, etc. I've given free legal advice to some of them. It was in a pretty sketchy industrial location near downtown--my date and I got a hotel room downtown and took a cab to the party, but couldn't get a freakin cab to come pick us up. It was three miles to the hotel. Not a one of them was willing to give me a ride.

It blew my mind. I don't feel like I did nice things for them so they should pay me back--that's not my covert contract. If I have a covert contract, it's that when you're friends with someone, there's certain things you do for them, when you can--like not leaving them stranded in a sketchy part of town.

I know they know I live about 20 miles out of the way and maybe I didn't make it clear that I was staying downtown and that the ride was not that far--I don't know.

This was a couple of months ago and I still wonder what the heck that was about. The couple I am closest with, I found out that she was having an operation on the Monday after the party--so, maybe they had a lot on their minds, and didn't really understand that I was staying so close.

How did we get back to the hotel? Some Russian guys driving a van that looked like it was set up for the website Bang Bus gave us a ride for $40. There was no way we could walk in that area--especially with the heals my date was wearing.

[NGT]

by niceness i assume he means niceness coming from a place of emptiness and control