passive sex = bad sex?

[Jonomore]

[quote=man102]

Originally Posted by felix

one true problem is that you think getting what you want is so important you are willing to push at her to get it even when you know she can barely enjoy it, if at all, due to emotional, physical and or medical reasons. this has always been the case and she has not changed. if anything the meds have made it worse. another problem is that you have belittled your own needs for so long so that getting your needs respspected no matter what they are, is not taken seriously by your partner.

have you ever thought of discussing how you are both disrespecting each other in the sexual area? this must also be reflected in other areas of the marriage. but i didnt hear you say one thing about treating her in a way that would inspire her to feel sexual with you. if you have been wimping yourself out how can you expect her to be horny for you? women dont feel safe with wimps. and if she is comfortable disrespecting your sexuality it may be because you have pushed it on her or given her permission in some way to do that. forcing it on her now wiht this 2 times a week rule is not going to heal the underlying issues. have you ever asked her what makes her feel admiring of you? do you know what behavior inspires her to feel safe with you? emotional safety is what helps a woman feel comfrotable enough to be seduced. if she is a control freak, as you say, what kind of strength do you have to show to help her feel safe enogh to let go of needing to be in control?

I haven't made the 2X a week a rule, more of a personal guideline. I think 2X a week is acceptable and it is an attempt by me to get back on track. Baby steps.

As to your deeper questions; I am in a BPD relationship. Same principles apply but the reactions are more severe. There is a sensitivity with BPD people that is extreme. A look a wrong way can start WW3. NGs respond by not letting their true selves come out because of the exteme responses. All of what you say is true, we have had many of 'the conversations', thought that issues were resolved or understood but the next day it is like it hasn't happenned.

The wimp factor is an issue, in the past it was easier to pick my battles that were important. After a while the important ones were less important. There is a lot work I need to do, and I have circumstances which do not make it easier, in fact harder. Not trying to be a victim here, but being with BPD there sometimes is no logic or consistency.

It is an extemely difficult mental illness to deal with. I got myself into this spot and I realize that anything I do I need to do consistently and firmly. To do this will cause real problems that can range from suicide attemps to rages, I will need to develop everything I do with her as a boundary. I am prepared to tackle these issues and prepared for the fall out (i think).

NMMNG is my starting point and it feels good. Your comments are bang on. I utilize them one little step at a time.
tx.

[WideAwake]

Originally Posted by johannes

Well I got it this AM but it would have been more satisfying with a hole in the mattress. She is placid and completely unresponsive. It is always the same. She knows how important it is to me (I've told her) but puts next to no effort into it. She lays there - does nothing - I can grab her hand edge her on and she will passively accept but it is completely with out feeling.

I need to tag along w/ your train of thought to ask for advice...

I took the time yesterday to sit with my wife and tell her what NMMNG means to me; to tell her about the changes that she is already seeing and that I want sex. I told her that my previous approval-seeking methods were no more and that I would be telling her directly that i wanted to be intimate.

Ok... so now what!?! I don't want a "ceiling inspection" (as someone here said). The tug-of-war in my mind is deafening with the fear-filled what-if's. What if she fires back with 'are you kidding?' or other less than nice comment? what if she says - "not tonight dear but perhaps tomorrow?"

What about all of the relationshp books that say the man has to make the woman feel like having sex?!?! How does a NG prepare-the-way without it being a covered contract? Aarrgghh... so confused

Let me throw another thorn in the side... my wife is on meds for Obsessive Thought Dis. Within 30 mins of taking bedtime meds, she's either out completely or if awake, has no memory the following morning of any conversations we had the previous evening. We've already had too many episodes where she's had flashbacks during sex. Thankfully, its been a while but I don't want that! ...maybe it's been a while cuz we just haven't had sex?!?! I guess this will just need to be a statement of boundry.

[Kodiak]

Originally Posted by WideAwake

Ok... so now what!?! I don't want a "ceiling inspection" (as someone here said). The tug-of-war in my mind is deafening with the fear-filled what-if's. What if she fires back with 'are you kidding?' or other less than nice comment? what if she says - "not tonight dear but perhaps tomorrow?"

What about all of the relationshp books that say the man has to make the woman feel like having sex?!?! How does a NG prepare-the-way without it being a covered contract? Aarrgghh... so confused

Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway! This is a tough one to get over, but it is a necessity to your recovery. Last summer as I was getting started with NMMNG, I went through the same thought pattern. I even wrote a post here about one evening where I had planned out a fantasy sex night for my wife. Just at the moment of truth, I literally froze with fear! The wife was in the shower and I had to run downstairs to quickly set things up, and I just stood there like a deer in the headlights.

Then I remembered that it's ok to feel fear, but just do it anyway! I hustled downstairs and got things arranged for her surprise. The evening turned out differently than I had planned, and probably a lot different than my wife's fantasy script went, but it was still an amazing evening.

So stop already with the what-ifs. Because what if things go really great? If you do nothing, things go as poorly as possible because you get nothing. You have to learn that her rejection of sex is not a rejection of you or your masculinity (although that is a really hard thing to learn!). You have to learn to STATE your desire or feeling without an expectation. It's fine to hope for or to want sex, but don't expect it. Learn to tell her your desire rather than ask her for permission for sex. By telling her of your desire you stand to gain a lot, and you have nothing to lose.

[Jonomore]

Originally Posted by WideAwake

I took the time yesterday to sit with my wife and tell her what NMMNG means to me.......

What if she fires back with 'are you kidding?' or other less than nice comment? what if she says .....

What about all of the relationshp books that say the man has to make the woman feel like having sex?!?! How does a NG prepare-the-way without it being a covered contract? Aarrgghh... so confused

Let me throw another thorn in the side... my wife is on meds for Obsessive Thought Dis. Within 30 mins of taking bedtime meds, she's either out completely or if awake, has no memory the following morning of any conversations we had the previous evening. We've already had too many episodes where she's had flashbacks during sex. Thankfully, its been a while but I don't want that! ...maybe it's been a while cuz we just haven't had sex?!?! I guess this will just need to be a statement of boundry.

The Talk.
Been there way too often. This proved to be totally ineffective for me. What works best now is 'just do it.' No time to think or counter reaction. The talk is almost asking for approval in my books.

What ifs.
I don't do 'what ifs.' This is a statement I make to my wife. 'What ifs' never happen as played out in my mind. I refuse to do what ifs.

Relationship books are EVIL as stated.
They make us NGs, soft, accomodating and all the other usual shit that got us here in the first place. Probably written by a woman or a NG.

The Meds
I know about the meds, night sex is useless, I've told her to take her meds with her to bed and take them there - after. It works. I refuse to speak to my wife in any real depth if she has taken meds - waste of time.

Boundary?
I have been trying to figure out if I can make sex a boundary of some sort. I'm finding that I don't need to, it is getting to be less of an issue.

I am now expecting sex as opposed to looking for an angle to have my wife justify giving me sex. What a difference.

[Finster2004]

Originally Posted by Kodiak

You have to learn that her rejection of sex is not a rejection of you or your masculinity (although that is a really hard thing to learn!).

Amen, brother. Unfortunately, NMMNG and the OSG don't necessarily make learning it any easier, because there's an underlying assumption that if your wife or significant other isn't responding to you sexually, then it's because you're still a NG and not an IM.

That's a falacy. If your wife or s/o isn't responding to you sexually, then it MAY be because you're still a NG and not an IM, but it may also be due to a plethora of other possible reasons, none of which have anything to do with how integrated you are.

That's another negative effect that porn has on men. It causes us to believe, on a subconscious level, that if you're man enough, you can make ANY woman writhe in ecstacy at WILL. By extention, we start to believe that even if our wives or signifcant others are not sexually responsive to us, they would still be writhing in ecstacy with another man.

This is another falacy. My gut feeling is that if our wives or significant others were to leave us for another man, they would probably heat up temporarily (due to that initial excitement of "something new" that we ALL benefited from), but it would only be a relatively short matter of time before they settled into their old patterns again.

[cabesada]

Originally Posted by Finster2004

This is another falacy. My gut feeling is that if our wives or significant others were to leave us for another man, they would probably heat up temporarily (due to that initial excitement of "something new" that we ALL benefited from), but it would only be a relatively short matter of time before they settled into their old patterns again.

From my very personal experience, your gut is right.

[Achilles23]

I have to confess that this has been an issue I've been working. In the past, I have passively approached sex due to confidence issues surrounding my strugges with ED.

I have started to apply a more aggressive approach, which I have to admit I have not been always successful in applying the approach. When I have used it, it has resulted in successful and very satisfying sex.

My feeling on this is: passive sex definitely equals bad sex, if there is sex at all. Women can sense a man's passivity as much as they can sense a dirty, smelly rag. Often, they also look upon such passivity with the same level of disdain.

[DLR]

Originally Posted by bestman23

Women can sense a man's passivity as much as they can sense a dirty, smelly rag. Often, they also look upon such passivity with the same level of disdain.

You're on to something there. I was thinking recently that the one thing that is most different about my approach now as opposed to the old NG approach is this: the old NG would assume the answer was "no", and waste time looking for any sign of "yes". Now, I assume I have a green light at all times unless I'm told otherwise. And, when I'm told otherwise I still don't stop right away because often times the red light turns green quickly when met with a little assertiveness.

[Kodiak]

Originally Posted by dlr

the old NG would assume the answer was "no", and waste time looking for any sign of "yes".

That is so accurate it's scary!

[Tony67]

Originally Posted by GentleGrafter

If you want to know what your woman wants, ask your woman.

And when you ask her, she'll say "nothing" or "this is fine" then be pissed when you don't figure it out from that.

[Zaurus]

Great stuff guys.
I had sex one night this week. The next night I told her I wanted it again.
(Something I wouldn't have dare done in the past.)

She gave me the usual crap - what, you just had it last night, sigh, eye-rolling, etc...
Usually, the NG in me would be hurt, insulted, and think jeez, she's right. I'm a freakin pervert wanting sex from my wife 2 nights in a row. I am a sick sex pervert. That's how I used to think. Then I'd probably go masturbate to porn later.

But this time I reacted differently. I looked her right in her face and told her I did not think that sex was something so traumatic that she needed several days to recover from. (I forget but someone else here on these boards phrased that idea well). I then told her again I'd like to make love now.

And whaddya know, we ended up having one of the most passionate nights we have had in a long time. It was the first time we had sex for 2 nights in a row in probably years.

(I have grown a tremendous amount in a short time thanks to the book and this OSG. You guys rock).

[Tony67]

Originally Posted by Zaurus

this time I reacted differently. I looked her right in her face and told her I did not think that sex was something so traumatic that she needed several days to recover from. (I forget but someone else here on these boards phrased that idea well). I then told her again I'd like to make love now.

And whaddya know, we ended up having one of the most passionate nights we have had in a long time. It was the first time we had sex for 2 nights in a row in probably years.

Zaurus man that is a great success! Putting that into practice is a huge step and look at the reward!

Originally Posted by man102

Emailed wife yesterday about some stuff (daily crap schedules etc.) Told her I wanted to make some time for sex tongiht (being friday = last night). She responded to everything but the sex.

That sounds so familiar. So very familiar. Repetatively familiar, right down to the sting when she responds to everything BUT the sex poriton of the message. Like as is maybe she thinks if she pretends she never read that part, then she won't have to deal with it. The way you handled it and didn't let her off the hook sounds great. Healthy expectations and a reasonable request. We are not perverts for wanting to have sex with our wives!